Europe must stand up, and for that, we need to break free from the nationalist tunnel vision that’s paralyzed us for decades, says Reinier van Lanschot, Dutch MEP from the Volt party. In his interview with RFE/RL’s Georgian Service, van Lanschot discusses his party’s ambitious nine-point plan for transforming Europe — from creating a European army and stripping Hungary of its veto rights, to promoting Estonian PM Kaja Kallas as a pan-European foreign minister. He also talks about Georgia, which he recently visited as a member of the European Parliament fact-finding mission, and warns that the Georgian Dream government’s shift toward a “Russian-style autocracy” is accelerating faster than anyone expected.
Stripping Hungary of veto rights, creating a common European army, “promoting” Kaja Kallas to EU-wide minister of foreign affairs – your nine-point plan is certainly “a bold, actionable plan,” but how actionable is it? And by whom?
If the EU wants to, it’s actionable. It depends on the will of the member countries’ governments. Right now, Europe is on its knees. If they want Europe to stand up, the plan points at the necessary steps to make. For Europe to stand up, we need our heads of state to get out of the nationalistic tunnel they have been in for the past decades. Walking out of that tunnel is not impossible, but it depends on their strength of will to think and act European. That’s the biggest constraint.
How much willingness is there at the moment, and how does one go about acquiring more?
There is more willingness now than ever before, thanks to the current events. In these troubled times, only a Europe that acts together can rise up to the challenges that these times have brought to our door. And to do that, we need to consider other decision-making models, because within the current one, there are countries – I am obviously talking about Hungary and Slovakia – that are holding the rest of Europe hostage. So that’s one of the first steps that needs to be addressed. Another is facing the reality of the world today, a reality in which we cannot rely on the United States and NATO as we did in the past. Reality has yet to really sink in. There is more willingness than before toward creating what we call a “European army,” though the first step would be a European Command and Control Center, but that willingness is still not enough.
The speed with which Georgian Dream is trying to turn Georgia into a Russian-style autocracy is so much quicker than I expected
That is indeed the most ambitious of the nine points. How do you turn something which for decades has only been considered as a fanciful ambition into a reality?
Every time the European army is seen as a solution or something realistic, we get called naïve, dreamers and so on. But I started in politics in 2017, and I remember people said, “oh, Europe should never care about EU-wide health care. It’s a national competence, and it should remain so.” Then COVID hit, and all of a sudden we thought differently. When the pandemic came, we suddenly started wanting it; realized it was a good thing. Now, with the Ukraine war and the current US policy towards Europe, more and more people want a European army too. It has become realistic. You see the public opinion shift. So why is it not happening yet? One, we were under the impression that the US would always take care of us, and now we cannot rely on them. But it’s also because many Europeans refuse to acknowledge that each country by themselves is so insignificant that, alone, we cannot do anything significant on the global stage, not even bigger countries like France or Germany. Europe should already be creating a command and control structure that is independent; it should create its own intelligence and cyber warfare and satellite infrastructure and other strategic enablers.
Do you think the idea will outlive the Ukraine war?
I’m afraid nobody really knows, because it depends on a lot of things, what the eventual end of the war will look like in Ukraine. But I think the threat of Russia will remain, especially against the EU countries that border it. So the idea will retain relevance for future deterrence.
The first point of your nine-point plan says the EU should invoke Article 7 of the EU Treaty and strip Hungary of veto rights. But you would need a unanimous decision, except for the country concerned, and you have Slovakia there, so stripping veto rights from either would require consent from the other. How do you see that moving forward?
I think the Special Ukraine Summit was a good demonstration of that: Hungary was sidelined in the issue of providing additional support for Ukraine. And this is the second time that has happened, and I believe it won’t be the last. We need to be able to act quickly. We might need to set up a new structure that operates on the principles of qualified majority, one that would in essence exclude Hungary and Slovakia but include the 25 others.
Why wasn’t anything done on that front, or indeed on any of the nine points, at the summit? It would have been an ideal starting point.
Yes, it would have been. All nine could have been decided then and there, but I am afraid our European leaders do not yet have the courage to go as far as is necessary at the moment.
For Europe to stand up, we need our heads of state to get out of the nationalistic tunnel they have been in for the past decades. Walking out of that tunnel is not impossible, but it depends on their strength of will to think and act European
On to Georgia then, a subject on which you have been very vocal for quite some time now. What did you discover on the EP fact-finding mission to Georgia?
What I discovered, first and foremost, is that the speed with which Georgian Dream is trying to turn Georgia into a Russian-style autocracy is so much quicker than I had expected. It’s startling. You see political opponents being hunted down, police brutality in streets, attacks on media and journalists – all these are unacceptable and the EU should have acted long ago, imposing targeted sanctions that the European Parliament has called for on multiple occasions, on Ivanishvili, his family and inner circle. It’s all so very Russian. About 50 families are profiting from the repression and exploitation of the Georgian people.
So far, what we’ve seen from the EU are repeated condemnations and secondary diplomatic sanctions. Is it realistic to expect more from the EU as a bloc, with Orban and Fico being Georgian Dream allies?
It might seem unrealistic at the moment, but things that seemed unrealistic merely months, or a couple of weeks, ago have become very much more realistic today. The last resolution that we adopted with the European Parliament was very clear and very strong. And if the suggestions made in that resolution were adopted by the European Council, that would be a great step forward. I’m also trying to convince the French government, with my French colleagues that are in support of Georgia, to unilaterally do it, but I think while in some cases President Macron has shown the necessary courage, in this case, he is not living up to what history is asking of him.
The legitimacy of the Georgian government still hangs in the air, and we haven’t actually heard from the EU whether it considers this government legitimate or illegitimate. What are they waiting for?
That’s exactly the question I have been asking as well – What are you waiting for? And I don’t get any answer that is satisfying. They had months to make up their minds. We are talking about a country where more than 80% of the population wants to join the EU and has fought for the European way in the streets, waving EU flags, standing up for values that the European Union was founded upon. They need an answer.
Is there a danger that the longer this goes on, the further down Georgia will be on the EU agenda, and the more desensitized the EU will become to it? “Ah, ok, that’s just the way Georgia is. Too bad, can’t be helped. Best to talk with this government still, as opposed to complete isolation.”
Yes, there definitely is such a risk. When I read that some countries presented their credentials to Kavelashvili, and Belgium and Luxemburg were among them, I felt my head almost explode in anger. So, unfortunately, there is such a risk, it’s real, it’s there. We should work hard to make sure it doesn’t happen.
Interview by Vazha Tavberidze
